PODCAST: Galley Slavery in Seventeenth-Century France

JAMES CUNO: Hello, I’m Jim Cuno, president of the J. Paul Getty Trust. Welcome to Art and Ideas, a podcast during which I communicate to artists, conservators, authors, and students about their work.
GILLIAN WEISS: There’s been an assumption that any one who stepped foot on French territory within the metropole went free. In reality, enslaved Turks didn’t go free; they usually spent their complete lifetime in servitude.
CUNO: In this episode, I communicate with authors Gillian Weiss and Meredith Martin about their new e book The Sun King at Sea: Maritime Art and Galley Slavery in Louis XIV’s France.
Studies of artwork and tradition of Louis XIV’s period have privileged Paris and Versailles to the neglect of the port metropolis of Marseilles. The latest rise of fabric tradition research, in addition to artwork historical past’s international flip, have broadened this view. In their new e book, The Sun King at Sea: Maritime Art and Galley Slavery in Louis XIV’s France, Gillian Weiss and Meredith Martin focus our consideration on the various fluid interchanges between Paris and seaport cities in Seventeenth century France. They spotlight particularly the lives and labors of enslaved Turks, who had been enlisted to assist construct and adorn ships and different artwork objects created to proclaim the facility and glory of the Sun King.
I lately spoke with Professor Weiss of Case Western Reserve and Professor Martin of New York University about their new e book, printed by the Getty Research Institute.
Thank you, Meredith and Gillian, for talking with me on this podcast episode. You introduce your e book by describing the Musée d’Histoire de Marseille, which opened its doorways in 1983. Describe the museum for us and inform us why you opened the e book that means.
GILLIAN WEISS: The Marseille History Museum is perhaps one of many solely museums on the planet that’s housed in a shopping center. And it’s there as a result of a sequence of contemporary excavations unearthed some Greek archaeological stays on the location. The museum additionally occurs to be positioned close to a number of places which might be necessary for our e book: the harbor of the Old Port, previously the location of the royal arsenal, the shipbuilding complicated for the galleys; in addition to close to the seventeenth century promenade referred to as the Core.
It’s a spot that manifests Marseille’s multilayered historical past and its multicultural inhabitants. But what it doesn’t explicitly present is the presence of Louis XIV’s galley slaves. And we wished to open and shut our e book with a mirrored image about problems with reminiscence and erasure, which is one thing that’s evident in each the museum’s galleries and collections, in addition to different websites across the metropolis.
CUNO: And Meredith, what function did Charles le Brun and his painted medallion play within the story that’s so outstanding?
MEREDITH MARTIN: Yes, it’s truly on the duvet of our e book, and we describe it within the introduction. But actually, our complete undertaking and collaboration was impressed by an off-the-cuff e mail alternate we had about this painted medallion, which seems on the ceiling of the Hall of Mirrors at Versailles, and which represents Louis XIV subjugating three dark-skinned, shackled males, who’re all carrying turbans. I got here throughout this picture in a Google search and I emailed Gillian to ask her about it, since I knew she’d written a e book in regards to the reverse phenomenon of Frenchmen enslaved in North Africa.
And she recognized it as representing the hundreds of so-called enslaved Turks, who had been principally Muslim and who had been captured or bought to be delivered to France throughout Louis XIV’s reign. These males had been pressured to row a brand new fleet of galleys that the French monarchy had constructed as a solution to attempt to dominate Mediterranean commerce, but additionally to signify Louis XIV as a form of Catholic crusader.
We began wanting round for extra photos of this phenomenon, and we found that it had, actually, been represented in a very big selection of media: ship design, maritime weapons, and treatises, in addition to medals, work, and prints. But the truth that there appeared to have been so little written about it’s what prompted us to put in writing this e book.
CUNO: Now, many people have lengthy admired the Marie de Medici Cycle of work within the Louvre, whereas overlooking a lot of what you now draw our consideration to. Describe these work to us and inform us why they’re so necessary to the thesis of your e book.
MARTIN: So this was actually massive monumental cycle of twenty-four work that Marie de Medici, who was an Italian-born Queen of France had commissioned earlier within the seventeenth century. And most artwork historians argue that she did in order a solution to inform her story, but additionally to form of have fun and legit her rule. Her former husband, the King of France, had been assassinated, and she or he had been serving because the regent for her younger son.
We speak about one explicit portray from this cycle, which reveals her arrival on the Port of Marseille previous to marrying her husband. And this was an enormous occasion that was celebrated with nice fanfare and with loads of maritime spectacles. And in all probability essentially the most well-known of those spectacles was her personal ceremonial galley, which Rubens depicts in a single nook of the portray. And he additionally reveals a few of the enslaved oarsmen who rowed it. And he represents them as enslaved Turks or enslaved Moors.
Once Marie de Medici grew to become the Queen of France, she commissioned one other ceremonial galley to maintain on the Port of Marseille. And at one level, she wrote to her uncle, the Grand Duke of Tuscany, to ship her enslaved Muslims from the Medici Port of Livorno, to row this galley. And that is necessary to our e book as a result of it reveals that there have been earlier precedents—you understand, precise precedents in addition to creative precedents—for enslaving Muslims all through the Mediterranean. That Louis XIV didn’t invent this phenomenon, however he was impressed by it and he took it to new heights. And he was additionally, after all, personally influenced by Marie de Medici, who was his grandmother. And you’ll be able to see that affect within the Hall of Mirrors at Versailles and in different creative commissions.
CUNO: Gillian, inform us what a galley is, how massive it’s, what it seems like.
WEISS: So a galley is a form of Mediterranean oar-powered vessel that additionally used sails sometimes when there was wind accessible. And it had a pointed prow that was used to ram ships throughout battle. There was a plank that went down the center, that troopers would stroll on; and simply barely under sat the rowers, who had been usually chained 5 individual to a row, with a— relying on the dimensions of the galley, between twenty-five and thirty-six rows.
And there additionally, within the entrance of the galley, was a tented space the place the commander would give the directions to the crew. And one factor, truly, that we write about within the e book is the way in which during which loads of methods, the structure of the galley resembles that of a church. So in a sure means, it’s a bit bit just like the priest on the entrance, who’s standing and giving a sermon, is a bit bit just like the officers telling the rowers what to do.And they, actually, are pushing ahead on their entrance legs, on form of like a pew, one thing referred to as a pedang[sp?], as they lean into the row to energy the galley via the water.
CUNO: So the galley is a martial ship; is that proper?
WEISS: Well, a galley is each a ship of warfare and a type of a jail, in addition to a ship that transported items, in addition to dignitaries, from port to port. And it had been principally outdated technologically, by the seventeenth century, by round-bottomed crusing ships. But in loads of methods, it remained fairly helpful in Mediterranean waters, which had been calm. And it was fairly nimble, to have the ability to extra across the coast.
CUNO: Now, the Marseille Arsenal is the topic of your first chapter. Describe it to us, and its function in French naval management of a lot of the Mediterranean.
MARTIN: The Marseille Arsenal, which was constructed beneath the path of Louis XIV and Colbert within the 1660s, was a powerful spectacle. It was form of meant to be the maritime industrial counterpart to Versailles. And it took up a lot of the harbor and it was one thing that was remarked upon with awe and admiration by guests to Marseille.
Its partitions had been painted vivid blue with fleur-de-lis in yellow. It had quite a few pavilions, and it was used each to retailer galleys, but additionally as a shipbuilding palace, the place they had been constructed. And it was over the course of the 1660s and 1670s, they managed to construct about forty galleys there. And it was additionally a website of, you understand, unimaginable spectacles.
So for instance, making an attempt to mimic the instance of Venice, was a spectacle whereby a galley was constructed, in 1678, in a single twenty-four hour interval. And that spectacle was described, and likewise painted.
CUNO: So who had been the Turks? You’ve talked about them already. But inform us who they had been and the function they performed in French management of the Mediterranean.
WEISS: So enslaved Turks had been males who had been captured, however extra usually bought, in Mediterranean slave markets and alongside the Habsburg-Ottoman entrance, and so they predominately got here from the Ottoman Empire and Morocco. They had been presumed to be Muslim, and so they principally had been; however sometimes there have been Jewish rowers, who nonetheless fell into the class of enslaved Turk. And in a single event, there have been enslaved indigenous Americans, who additionally had been put into that class.
They had been anticipated to signify about twenty-five % of the rowing pressure. During the spring and summer season months, their fundamental operate was to assist propel the galleys within the Mediterranean. They had been reputed to be notably robust, and so they had been put at technically necessary positions on the oar. But through the winter and fall months, they had been truly pressured to work at port.
And at port, enslaved Turks, like different rowers, labored each on the naval arsenal and likewise for craftspeople across the metropolis. And doing that, they really helped to construct and adorn the ships that additionally they rowed.
We additionally discovered proof that some enslaved Turks had been employed by artists within the Port of Marseille and Toulon, to assist with artworks that had been made for Versailles. In explicit, Pierre Puget employed enslaved Turks and convicts to assist him with the completion of some sculptures that had been later despatched to Versailles.
CUNO: You imply they really helped them make the sculptures, or they had been the topic of the sculptures?
WEISS: Well truly, we do have proof that enslaved Turks had been despatched as much as Paris, to the École des Beaux-Arts, with a view to mannequin for some artworks. And there’s additionally different circumstantial proof that they had been used as fashions for various sorts of issues.
But enslaved Turks and convicts had been additionally used as labor. In the case of Puget’s statues, the paperwork that we discovered present that they moved issues round. They weren’t truly, like, carving the marble. But in different circumstances, if you consider a ship itself as a bit of artwork, enslaved Turks had been being skilled to do different issues, together with carving and caulking and so forth. So in that respect, they had been serving to to embellish and make the precise ships that they had been serving upon.
CUNO: Meredith, describe to us the weapons sculpted with depictions of enslaved Turks. Why Turks?
MARTIN: So we speak about many such weapons in our e book, however I’ll simply describe certainly one of them, which is a big naval cannon adorned with the pinnacle of an enslaved Turk, which was made by Jean Bebay[sp?], who was the pinnacle of the weapons foundry on the naval arsenal.
This Turk head,which appears to have been sculpted from a stay slave mannequin, who would’ve posed for Bebay on the port, serves because the spherical knob that was used to safe or to tie the naval cannon to a ship’s deck. And so truly, there would’ve been a rope wrapped tightly across the neck of this head, after which connected to the deck. And that might’ve form of amplified the sense of an enslaved Turk being captured and contained inside this weapon; but additionally the ache and struggling that’s actually clearly seen on his facial features.
And when it comes to why Turks, we argue that this cannon could have a form of approachopaic[sp?] operate. You know, perhaps warning any Ottoman or North African opponentabout the form of destiny which may befall them in the event that they tried to have interaction in naval exercise agais nst the Sun King’s fleet. But I feel it additionally may’ve— have been used to form of aggrandize this sense of energy and of energy of French seamen, who had been able to capturing certainly one of these fearsome infidel opponents.
CUNO: Now Meredith, your second chapter focuses on the that means of maritime imagery in monumental statues and palace décor. What are the variations in maritime imagery in work and sculptures within the capital and people on the coast?
MARTIN: Well, I feel one important distinction is that loads of the maritime artwork that was made for the coast is ephemeral and doesn’t survive at this time. Ships had been usually destroyed or shipwrecked; cannons had been typically melted down. Sometimes ship ornament would itself be recycled or repurposed. MARTIN (And that is one purpose why artwork historians have tended to focus extra consideration on monumental artworks made for the capital, for Paris and Versailles, versus these ephemeral productions for the coast.
But what we additionally present in our analysis is that loads of the actions that had been taking place within the coast had been represented within the capital. And the phenomenon of galley slavery was represented, as effectively. So we’ve already talked about Charles le Brun’s painted medallion for the ceiling of the Hall of Mirrors at Versailles, which was this beautiful, very massive room that built-in these work with mirrors and gilding and elaborate furnishings, a few of which had been made with uncooked supplies that had been sourced via maritime commerce or via colonial actions.
And there was additionally one other form of beautiful room within the palace that doesn’t survive at this time or that was torn down within the eighteenth century, referred to as the Ambassadors Staircase, which featured trompe l’oeil work of ambassadors from all all over the world who had been coming to pay homage to Louis XIV.
And you’ll be able to see in designs for the room that on the 4 corners of the ceiling, there are ship prows, that are flanked by chained captives. And these could confer with a few of the galley slaves that had been concerned on this battle. And I feel what this reveals is that there’s a form of delusion that Louis XIV wasn’t all that all for naval affairs, however actually, he was actually ; and all of this coastal or maritime imagery was a very key part of his propaganda.
CUNO: Did work, prints, and drawings of the topics of maritime energy substitute the precise devices of that energy?
MARTIN: Well, that’s a great query. I feel that, you understand, to some extent, these maritime artworks exaggerate, you understand, the diploma to which France was truly a naval superpower on this interval. Louis XIV did rating many necessary victories within the Mediterranean and elsewhere, however the French may by no means actually compete with the superior naval energy of the British and the Dutch, who had been extra targeted on Asia and the Atlantic world.
I feel the Sun King’s maritime victories had been usually represented in medals and prints, you understand, each of which might be made comparatively shortly and considerably inexpensively, and will flow into broadly. So that’s why they had been so necessary as propaganda.
I don’t assume they a lot changed the precise maritime energy that they depict, however they did, in sure cases, intention to deflect some criticism that Louis XIV was receiving from European rivals. And these rivals created their very own form of maritime imagery and satirical medals and prints that poked enjoyable at Louis XIV and recommended that actually, he wasn’t as highly effective as he was claiming to be, and likewise that he was double dealing—that he was claiming to be this type of Catholic crusader, a subjugator of infidels, however actually, was signing political and industrial agreements with the Ottoman Empire and with numerous North African states.
So there’s an attention-grabbing form of market on the time, each for these very honorific photos of Louis XIV, but additionally an curiosity within the satirical counter imagery, too.
CUNO: How common had been medals or medallions at the moment?
MARTIN: They had been truly extraordinarily common, and artists would make them in a wide range of totally different supplies, in order that they might be bought at totally different value factors. So you had gold, silver, and copper medals. And they had been one of the necessary artwork varieties and types of propaganda throughout Louis XIV’s reign.
Of course, satirical medals that attacked the Sun King had been additionally actually common. These had been made principally in Germany and within the Netherlands, and royal censors tries to maintain them out of France; however it’s fairly clear that they form of made it in and circulated. And actually, it appears that evidently Louis XIV actually loved taking a look at a few of these satirical medals and that his backyard designer, André Le Nôtre, stored a set of them.
And there’s a humorous anecdote or a quote from the time of Le Nôtre form of operating as much as Louis XIV and displaying him certainly one of these examples of certainly one of these satirical medals and saying, “Sire, that is one which’s actually towards us.”
CUNO: Now Gillian, did this enterprise that we simply talked about together with imagery of chained convicts? And if that’s the case, why?
WEISS: So the very first thing I feel I have to make clear is that whereas twenty-five % of the rowing pressure on the royal galleys had been made up enslaved Turks, the opposite seventy-five % had been made up of convicts. And these had been individuals who had been convicted of some extraordinarily critical crimes, but additionally some very petty ones.
And after the 1685 revocation of the Edict of Nantes, which made Protestantism unlawful in France, a portion of the convicts who had been despatched to the galleys had been convicted for the crime of Christian heresy. And so in our e book, we reproduce an engraving from 1686 that depicts enchained Protestants being marched to the galleys.
But actually, what was additionally extraordinarily outstanding, other than these engraved photos, was the spectacle of precise convict chain gangs leaving a central holding pen in Paris and being marched from the capital via France, alongside established routes, to the coast and to Marseille and the galleys.
CUNO: Now, inform me a bit extra about that. So in Versailles, there are these showplaces of maritime surprise that had been adorned with photos of enslaved peoples. But there have been truly enslaved peoples in Versailles or in Paris, or within the streets of Paris.
MARTIN: Yes. As Gillian talked about, there have been enslaved oarsmen who had been typically built-in into spectacles within the capital, and who had been additionally delivered to row a mannequin galley that policed the waters of the Seine. And at Versailles, you additionally had precise enslaved oarsmen who had been built-in—not simply represented in palace décor, however precise folks—who had been introduced up from Marseille and Toulon.
Louis XIV and Colbert, in an try and form of showcase Mediterranean energy at Versailles, created a complete form of miniature flotilla of the Sun King’s naval ships, together with a mannequin galley that was used for nautical or maritime spectacles that had been proven to international ambassadors and visiting dignitaries, together with, you understand, ambassadors from Spain and Algiers, who had been meant to form of see and perhaps, like, reexperience latest maritime conflicts that that they had had with France.
And the monarchy truly bought greater than fifty so-called enslaved Moors, who could have been from West Africa, to row this mannequin galley. And these males could have additionally been pressured to take part in courtroom masquerades and in festivals that happened at Versailles.
The mannequin flotilla on the Grand Canal was primarily a form of type of efficiency artwork; however typically there have been precise ships that performed a navy function at Versailles. The monarchy examined out bomb ketches, which was a brand new sort of ship that had been invented to hold out a number of bombardments towards Algiers that the French undertook through the 1680s. And I feel it’s attention-grabbing that many courtiers on the time acknowledged that there was a form of fantastic line between these political performances and precise navy exercise.
And actually, the seventeenth century French author Jean de la Fontaine is quoted at one level as saying that, you understand, all of Louis XIV’s entertainments or divertisments resemble warfare.
CUNO: Now Gillian, inform me, how acquainted had been folks in Paris with these sorts of demonstrations? And there have been demonstrations, as described, in a theatrical sense. Were they accessible to folks within the streets?
WEISS: Well, for literate folks, all kinds of Mediterranean occasions and spectacles had been described in nice element in gazettes, within the Mercure and different newspapers. It stored folks up-to-date about Mediterranean battles and bombardments, about visits of ambassadors from North Africa, dignitaries additionally from different elements of the Ottoman Empire, peace accords that reproduce the textual content of the accords, the liberation of French slaves from North Africa, the conversion of enslaved Turks in Marseille.
There was additionally a growth in printed narratives within the seventeenth century that described each captivity and liberation from North Africa, in addition to simply journey to totally different elements of the Mediterranean. So for the literate studying public, there was loads of materials accessible.
For individuals who weren’t literate, there was numerous sorts of visible representations, but additionally included the convict chains of rowers that had been headed to the Mediterranean, in addition to liberated captives who had been getting back from enslavement in North Africa.
However, these— they did even have— they did additionally happen in numerous Italian city-states, in addition to on the Iberian Peninsula and within the Holy Roman Empire.
CUNO: So we have now this imagery of enslaved Turks seen on work of the time and reenacted within the streets and carved on medals and medallions of the time. What function did imagery of enslaved Turks play in church buildings?
WEISS: So church buildings all through the Mediterranean, notably in Naples and in Malta, function depictions of enslaved Turks. We didn’t discover any surviving photos in France. But what we did discover had been quite a few descriptions of elaborate conversion ceremonies that happened each inside and out of doors church buildings.
In the 1680s particularly, which is a interval of accelerating orthodoxy main as much as the revocation of the Edict of Nantes, there have been massive group baptisms that contain outstanding members of society functioning as godparents, that had particular outfits in white for the neophytes, and decorations on cathedrals borrowed from the galleys—cannon hearth and music. But actually, I imply, simply on a person stage, I discovered a whole bunch of conversions within the archives of the Marseille Chamber of Commerce, which all had been celebrated, to some extent, with pomp, for normal folks to see.
CUNO: What in regards to the function that the imagery performed in science, in shipbuilding, and humanism, for instance?
WEISS: So the humanist motion was marked by a revival in curiosity in antiquity. And in order that included a revival in curiosity in galleys, particularly. One of the ways in which Louis XIV selected to undertaking his energy was as a Classical conqueror who, like those who got here earlier than, was in a position to construct and workers galleys. Of course, the distinction is that Louis XIV was dedicated to utilizing convicts and slaves to propel his galleys, whereas within the Classical interval, rowers tended to be free males.
We even have a complete chapter on shipbuilding manuals, which had been primarily commissioned by French naval officers in Marseille, who close to the top of the seventeenth century, had been displaying off their information about shipbuilding, and displaying off their information about hydrography, whereas additionally making an attempt to make a case for the continued significance of sustaining galleys and of enslaving Muslims. And that is at a second that galleys had been beginning to fall out of favor.
And in order that what these manuals exhibit is that this type of maritime propaganda wasn’t solely a top-down phenomenon, and the pursuits of officers weren’t all the time aligned with that of the crown. Not solely do they present the step-by-step course of for constructing a galley, however additionally they function actually elaborate cartouche of enslaved Turks. They try and argue visually that France’s sea energy and maritime dominance relied on harnessing the supposedly superior energy of enslaved Turks.
CUNO: Meredith, had been there different ways in which these incidences had been depicted?
MARTIN: Well, there’s one different well-known instance, which is the topic of the final chapter of our e book. And these are two monumental work that had been made by Michel Serre, who served because the chief painter for the galleys at Marseille.
And what they signify is the Great Plague of Marseille that started in 1720 and ended up killing practically half of town’s inhabitants. And as we speak about in our e book and in different publications, there’s a number of eerie similarities between the nice plague of Marseille and our personal COVID 19 pandemic. Not simply the truth that they’re separated by precisely 300 years, but additionally that at their inception, individuals who commented on the plague each form of blamed the supply of the contagion on foreigners, lots of whom had been then additionally tasked with cleansing it up.
And within the case of the 1720 plague, enslaved Turks had been conscripted, had been pressured to take away the useless, contaminated our bodies of plague victims from the streets of Marseille. And that is the horrific form of incident that Serre depicts. And he truly exaggerated the presence or the variety of enslaved Turks who took half on this cadaver elimination. And we argue that he did so as a result of he wished to have interaction with anxieties and debates in regards to the supply of the contagion, which was believed to come back from Muslim lands, and likewise to type stoke fears about international commerce that had been percolating on the time.
And just a few years after he made them, Serre’s work had been publicly exhibited for pay in Paris, which was a very uncommon factor to do on the time. And it pressured Parisians to confront the darker facet of what was taking place in Marseille. You know, not the Sun King’s maritime achievements or victories, but additionally dangers of an interconnected world, and even perhaps the failure or the lack of the monarchy to guard its topics.
CUNO: Now, there’s one thing very stunning within the graphic designs of those galley ships, as you’ve been describing, Gillian and Meredith, however then one thing horrific in regards to the spectacles of the struggling that they underpin, as effectively. And that appears to me to be on the heart of your e book, the intertwining of the attractive and the horrific, the enslaved and the elegant. How did you reconcile these variations?
MARTIN: I feel we don’t attempt to reconcile them, a lot as to place them in dialog, and even in pressure, with one another. Many of essentially the most celebrated or stunning artworks of the previous have a very ugly historical past. And revealing that historical past perhaps, or arguably, tarnishes their picture, or perhaps tarnishes the Sun King’s picture. But we predict it additionally affords a a lot deeper and richer image.
And that is clearly a part of a a lot bigger dialog that’s taking place proper now, with reference to the way in which that historic artworks are displayed in museums, in addition to the way in which that monuments are contextualized, and even maintained. And we would like our e book to be a part of this bigger dialog; however on the identical time, we wish to draw consideration to the precise phenomenon of enslaved Muslims in France, which actually hasn’t acquired very a lot consideration in any respect, who we actually really feel deserve their due.
CUNO: Gillian?
WEISS: Right now in Marseille, there’s a bit little bit of a remnant of the arsenal that also stands by the port, however there’s little or no signage to point what occurred on that website. And actually, the one public signage that makes any reference, in Marseille, to enslaved Turks is from a what seems to be apocryphal website of a supposed Muslim mosque within the arsenal.
So I feel, once more, that one of many issues we’re all for occupied with is why the presence of enslaved Turks has been so forgotten in France.
And so I feel that on the one hand, the instance of American chattel slavery has usually served because the prototype for understanding all types of servitude elsewhere, and so due to this fact, it has helped to occlude the presence of enslaved Turks in France. But I feel another excuse that the presence of enslaved Turks on royal galleys has been missed has to do with a longstanding authorized maxim that holds there aren’t any slaves in France. And though we all know that West Africans had been exploited within the Caribbean colonies of France, there’s been an assumption that the free-soil maxim held true for metropolitan France; and that certainly, any one who stepped foot on French territory within the metropole went free. In reality, enslaved Turks didn’t go free; they usually spent their complete lifetime in servitude.
And one of many issues that we are attempting to do on this e book, apart from present the preponderance of images of enslaved Turks, is solely to indicate that this imagery truly had precise reference in Marseille and Toulon, that there truly had been individuals who had been bought and captured and made to labor for his or her lifetimes on French soil.
CUNO: Well, your e book captures this hauntingly in its last two sentences, during which you write, “While the composition makes an attempt to attract the attention and thoughts upward towards a celestial imaginative and prescient of royal grandeur, the Turks convey them all the way down to the truth of useless our bodies within the dust. And that imaginative and prescient, the galley fragments under, look much less like constructing blocks for a reassembled fleet and extra like bones from a cadaver tomb, symbols of demise, somewhat than new life.”
Now, your e book is necessary, and the Getty’s grateful for having been given the possibility to publish it. We thanks each, Gillian and Meredith, for that and thanks for talking with me at this time.
MARTIN: Thank you for inviting us.
WEISS: Thank you.
CUNO: This episode was produced by Zoe Goldman, with audio manufacturing by Gideon Brower and mixing by Myke Dodge Weiskopf. Our theme music comes from the “The Dharma at Big Sur” composed by John Adams, for the opening of the Walt Disney Concert Hall in Los Angeles in 2003, and is licensed with permission from Hendon Music. Look for brand spanking new episodes of Art and Ideas each different Wednesday, subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and different podcast platforms. For images, transcripts, and different assets, go to and if in case you have a query, or an concept for an upcoming episode, write to us at [email protected] Thanks for listening.



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